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What do you want/like in your Dual <span class="highlight">Battery</span> charger?

Submitted: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 14:40

ThreadID: 68785 Views:4138 Replies:15 FollowUps:21

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Powderfish

Hi guys!

Great site here with excellent info. I have been having a good look through of late because I'm doing a final year project at my uni regarding smart battery chargers for multiple battery systems in 4WDs, caravans, boats, etc.

As an avid outdoors person (fisherman myself) I know how important it is to look after batteries. I have an electric motor on my boat powered by 2 x 100Ah Haze gel batteries and I treat them very well with a Ctek charger and they look after my needs very nicely.

What I need your help with, though, is some background research to my project. I would like to know what you guys, people with real-world dual battery experience, think of the current solutions (Redarc, ABR Sidewinder, Piranha, etc) and how they could be improved for ease of use, battery indicators, user input, number of batteries, level of care, etc. Even if it's something that's currently available that you really like, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

If there is anything, no matter how small or significant, you think you could add, I'd really appreciate a quick reply to this thread. I will be designing a microprocessor controlled unit, so the possibilities are endless. I plan to have a little display screen with audible alarms if there's a problem, temperature cables for each battery, etc.

I must stress that this is purely a personal project for my undergraduate degree. There are rules that prevent me from profiting from my project, so this in not a commercial venture in any way. The only things to come from this are a well-rounded and researched project and a thread with some great ideas that someone may integrate into future smart multiple battery charging systems!

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Powderfish.

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Reply By: Peter McG (Member, Melbourne) - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 14:54

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 14:54

HI Fish,

Interesting project. In brief, I have a GU Patrol and tow an Ultimate camper. I have an auxilary battery in the car and 2 AGMs in the camper. I have a Piranha system fitted but this only ensures that the main battery isn't drained.

It would be good if a system could ensure that aux and camper batteries get a three stage charge rather than simply the ~14v from the alternator.

Arrid have a device you could fit to each battery but a single unit that would manage charge levels to aux and camper would be great.

Good luck.

Cheers

Peter

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AnswerID: 364664

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 15:43

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 15:43

Thanks Peter! That's exactly the sort of info I'm after. I'll have a good look at the Arrid system.

3-stage charging is definitely the way to go. I think my Ctek is 8 stage from the top of my head, but certainly any system that will boost, absorb and float charge is best. I am looking into integrating 3-stage charging, just depends on costs at this stage being a uni project. Switching and isolating up to 100amps is not cheap!

Cheers for the prompt reply!

Powderfish

FollowupID: 632315

Reply By: Member -Dodger - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 15:50

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 15:50

I have had dual batteries in the GU Patrol from new controlled by a simple solenoid system that combines both batteries when the engine ign is on.
In the van I have a 120amp hr AGM battery that is charged from the vehicle Aux battery via an anderson plug using an Arid twin charge unit in the van that brings the battery up to float.
This system has been in the van and vehicle since 2001 and so far no problems.
I also have a free standing 80watt solar panel that charges the battery's when camping out.
In the van there is a three stage charger that keeps the power up when connected to 240v.

I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

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AnswerID: 364673

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:18

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:18

Thanks Dodger,

Is it normal for caravans to have systems built in to accept a charge from the car alternator and three-stage charge the van battery? Or is this something you generally add on yourself? I can understand a 240V charger built in, but one that accepts the alternator charge would have to be aftermarket, correct?

Thanks again!

Brenton.

FollowupID: 632325

Follow Up By: Member -Dodger - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:31

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:31

Have a look here

Arid

Then go battery systems and have a look at the twin charge unit.

I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

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FollowupID: 632326

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:49

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:49

And here

Ranox

Also watch the cut out ( seperation) voltage of the Redarc, many inc me believe it is too low ( 12.4V) from memory and should be 12.8 - 12.9 to prevent partial discharge of the main battery when the the aux load is being used and the alternator is not charging.

The Surepower ( rebadged as ARB) ones are like this.

Another idea is to have a mode that seperates the batteries and directs all the load to the aux Battery. That way it can more fully charge the aux. ( but not as good as a Ranox etc for trailer / caravans)

FollowupID: 632330

Follow Up By: greybeard - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:05

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:05

current model redarc ( latest with clear electronics box ) now switches at 12.7 ( drop out ) and 13.2 ( on )
current drain of active solenoid is now ~ 170mA after about a second from turn on.

FollowupID: 632342

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:10

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:10

So it does, At last. That's much better.

Thanks There was a thread about 2 months ago where a guy had a problem with it. I will try to find it.

FollowupID: 632343

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:14

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:14

Well, what do you know. It was you! No wonder you are up to speed with the new one.

Hope it solved your problem.

Haha

FollowupID: 632344

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 22:55

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 22:55

Do you think Redarc will issue an upgrade to the old ones.

Not holding my breath.

FollowupID: 632393

Reply By: Ray - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 18:12

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 18:12

Hi. Best of luck with you project. I have two 75amph sealed batteries mounted on the draw bar of my caravan. These are charged from the tow vehicle via an isolator that is only closed when the ignition of the tow vehicle is on, Anderson plugs and 4 aswg cable. I do not have a Redcar isolator or an Arrid twin charger and have had no problems with voltage drop ( due to the size of the cable) but the system is bulky. In the caravan is a 15 amp smart charger that charges the batteries when the caravan is plugged into the mains and not connected to the towing vehicle although I believe that it would be quite safe to leave the tow vehicle connected when the ignition is turned off. The 4 aswg cable is fused either end.
I did at one stage consider using an inverter and a smart charger to charge the batteries but I am not too keen to have 240 volts while on the move although 110volt inverters and chargers are available from the U.S.A. and Canada.
As you mentioned earlier, many caravans have a battery charge built in. I am certain that you could devise some system to utilize this charger to charge the batteries from the tow vehicle that would incorporate adequate safety devices in the event of an accident. I do believe that costs could be kept to a minimum especially if the charger and inverter were imported fro the U.S.A. or Canada. You would have noticed that Arrid equipment is very expensive

AnswerID: 364691

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:10

Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:10

Ray, I have noticed the price of the equipment and I have a limited budget for my project, so I cannot reproduce equipment as fancy as some. I know it will be difficult, and your solution of an inverter and mains charger from the US is a good one, but I do need to design the system myself to get the marks for the project.

With your isolator, is that simply connected to the ignition of the car so that it gets 12V once the key is turned to "accessories"? If so does that mean the starter coil is pulling from all batteries when it takes its main drain? This is something i am trying to determine, how to isolate the AGM/Gel/SLA batteries when such a load is being drained from the main wet battery.

Cheers,

Powderfish

FollowupID: 632643

Reply By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:33

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:33

Powderfish,

Long history of 12v charging discussions on this site. Can I suggest you start with a search of the archives. Should give you enough bulk of material to turn your research into a PhD.

My other suggestion is to provide an E-Mail address if you want some responses. There are a few differing schools of though on this site with regards to alternator charging in particular and these discussions have done the rounds a fair bit. Maybe you would get more of a response if you provided an E-Mail address to use.

Best of luck,

Matt.

AnswerID: 364713

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:25

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:25

Matt, was hesitant to provide an address, but I will seeing that I'm sure you all have some great docs and info you are willing to share.

b k y christmas (at) hot mail . com

Just get rid of spaces and make the obvious change to a symbol.

Many thanks!

FollowupID: 632431

Reply By: Diksta - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 20:01

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 20:01

Hi powderfish,
i run a rotronics independent charging system in my 100 series, it separates the main battery from the alternator and distributes charge to the cranking battery and then switches over to charge the extra battery, every 20 mins or so it checks the charge of the main battery, that way you can run different types of batteries without bringing them to a common level i am very happy with it.

cheers

AnswerID: 364719

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 21:58

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 21:58

1. 3-stage charging of the Auxiliary Battery with Temperature compensation. Compensation for any loads connected to the Aux battery. Settable for different battery types. Over-temperature protection of AGM batteries.

2. Remaining-capacity display of main and aux battery.

3. Low-capacity disconnection of the Aux Loads with settable cutoff point, based on remaining capacity, NOT just voltage. Zero-holding current using Latching Relay (see Oatley Electronics kit for $20) or MOSFETs.

AnswerID: 364737

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:25

Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:25

Mike,

temperature compensation is quite an easy thing to incorporate into the design as it's simply more coding in the micro and a few temperature leads. I don't know why it's not standard in all chargers as it is excellent from a safety point or view and extending the life of your batteries. .

As for capacity display and switch-off points, as far as I'm aware, apart from voltage, it is quite difficult and expensive to test capacity of these batteries. Most of my research has indicated that voltage is a sufficient test. The only other true way is a cold current load test which requires very expensive equipment and is a whole other computer controlled device in itself. Or for cycle batteries such as AGM and GEL, a drain test with a computer mapping the performance.

Could you please expand a bit on the zero-holding current theory thanks Mike. I'm not familiar with this.

Thanks for your input!

Powderfish

FollowupID: 632650

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 21:02

Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 21:02

Temperature Compensation - it's essential that it uses a sensor ON the battery. There's a massive difference in temperature between the Alternator (where existing systems sense the temperature) and the battery in the rear !

Voltage measurement to determine capacity is useless, except when the battery is not being charged or discharged. Alternatives are integrating charge and discharge currents, but Peukerts Law makes this complicated. Another alternative is to sense voltage drop when a known load is applied - Sidewinder had one like this.

Rather than just being an Isolator between Main and Auxiliary Battery, you may as well have the Low-Voltage Cutout for the Auxiliary in the same box, to prevent over-discharging. You don't want to use a conventional relay to switch the loads when the Alternator is off, because it will shorten battery time. So a zero-holding-current solution is preferable. Oatley Electronics sell a Kit with a Latching Relay in it (you could add this to your solution ) or use a MOSFET if there are no really high-current loads. Ideally the user will be able to set the cutoff point based on "capacity remaining" using the "capacity meter" described above, rather than voltage sensing which is very dependant on the load the current is drawing.

FollowupID: 632951

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 22:20

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 22:20

Powderfish, You ask the question:
"What do you want/like in your *Dual Battery CHARGER*
I'm doing a final year project at my uni regarding *smart battery CHARGERS* for multiple battery systems in 4WDs, caravans, boats, etc"

Are the products: "Redarc, ABR Sidewinder, Piranha" actually battery chargers ?

Do they charge the Aux Battery or do they simply disconnect the Aux battery from the Cranking battery when either the Cranking battery Voltage gets too low, or the Alternator is no longer charging the Cranking battery ?

Maîneÿ . . .

AnswerID: 364744

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:21

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:21

Excellent point. Maybe I should have worded it battery "carers". They will charge and look after a battery given an altenator feed. Middleman to manage the battery setup and ensure batteries are kept in optimum condition and get the longest life possible.

Thanks for your input.

Powderfish

FollowupID: 632430

Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 00:07

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 00:07

Powderfish

Put your e-mail address on the thread and some may have documents to e-mail you I have a heap of measured performance figures collected by Ranox that I could send you. Maybe they may send them to you if you contact them. If you put your e-mail address on the thread then put some obvious characters in it so that web crawlers can not harvest it but we can delete them to restore the address.

PeterD

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AnswerID: 364755

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:27

Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:27

Peter, I have emailed Ranox, thanks. If you could also send me your performance figures, I would be greatly appreciative. My email address is now in this thread.

FollowupID: 632651

Reply By: Wok - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 08:57

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 08:57

Powderdish,

Current setup: 3 stage DC-DC charger[from NZ by P West]
Wishlist:
1] Adjustable current limiting
2] Integrated switching of Aux load[s] from battery to alternator when engine is running.

eng hoe

AnswerID: 364768

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:40

Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:40

Hi Wok. Thanks for your input.

With your second point, you would like to be able to switch loads from the AUX battery to the alternator or auxiliary loads from the cranking battery to the alternator? What sort of loads are you referring to, vehicle electrics or added loads like a fridge, TV, etc?

This is a good point actually. In current systems, are the vehicle loads attached in parallel to the alternator and the regulators isolate the batteries after this point or are the vehicle loads attached permanently to a battery so as to ensure they always have power? My system would ideally have the ability to isolate all batteries from any power drain when the vehicle is switched off, but I know many newer cars now have radio codes, computer management systems, etc that need power even when switched off.

Cheers!

Powderfish

FollowupID: 632657

Follow Up By: Wok - Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 11:47

Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 11:47

Hi Powderfish,

I am referring to loads that run of the Aux battery[s] being connected to the alternator when the engine is running. In my case; portable chargers for camera/torch batteries. fridge & Peltier cooler & heater.

The OEM load is unchanged. I think it would be unwise to isolate the starter battery e.g security system would be disarmed :(

My logic for this follows on from the argument that charging of paralleled batteries results in uneven charging......[fact or fiction :) This may be an issue if a “smart charger” is used as this could be fooled by a load on the battery being charged].
Removing the load resolves this issue as well as providing a “faster” recharge. I use a SPDT relay to do this.

+1 For John K's suggestion for modules...perhaps a motherboard/backplane which allows for future changes by the end-user & manufacturing upgrades .

eng hoe

FollowupID: 632855

Reply By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:28

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:28

Thanks to all so far for the great replies. I will take all of this information and go through it very thoroughly.

If you have any more information you could share but would rather email, then please email me on:

b k y christmas (at) hot mail . com
(just get rid of spaces and insert the at symbol)

Thanks heaps!

Powderfish.

AnswerID: 364815

Reply By: Nic I - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 14:37

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 14:37

Why not a carer/charger/regulator which has additional inputs for solar panels as well ? ie, two input stages, one or more output stage.

AnswerID: 364833

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 16:12

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 16:12

This is such a good idea I had already thought of it :-)

Yep, it's in, it's relatively simple to add a solar input, so it's on the drawing board for sure. Thanks!

Powderfish

FollowupID: 632466

Reply By: Wahroonga Farm - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 17:40

Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 17:40

Hi all and Powderfish,

You have a spectacular opportunity here for a great undergraduate project and a spot on the Inventors.

Much in the RV world is cobbled together using multiple discreet component parts? How much?

Answer? ..... All of it.

So what are they?:

# Smart Battery isolators
# Smart 240v chargers
# Smart 12 volt chargers
# 12/240v inverters
# Smart solar panel regulators Hint: Check out the Plasmatronics PL PLC controlled range for the heart-beat of your new system
# Smart battery monitor systems

OK got all those?

Now:

# Where do our many sources of charge come from?
# How much makes it into the battery?
# How much makes it into the appliances?
# What is the battery SOC
# What happens to any smart charger when it has a constant or intermittent appliance load. Can it complete all phases of charge?

Think of a fundamental 3 terminal box.
1.Charge in
2. Battery in/out
3. Load.

Then think outside the box for a solution. A modular plug and play system maybe?

John k

AnswerID: 364864

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:50

Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:50

John, you see the potential in this project that I see! Unfortunately I am very limited being a university project with set budget and time parameters. However the reason I wanted to undertake such a project is because I have a vision similar to what you describe above and it will provide me with many options as I develop the project.

Why can't we just have one box that sits under the hood that does everything? plug n play display systems, 240V input for external charging, alternator regulation and distribution with 3 stage charging, solar input, etc. Heck, in the future maybe you could have some bluetooth phone software that allows you to set priorities, current limiting and monitoring of your batteries in real time!

I think there's potential behind such an idea and it drives my project, but as I say, limitations are in place. Unfortunately :-)

Many thanks for your thoughts.

Powderfish.

FollowupID: 632661

Follow Up By: Wahroonga Farm - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 14:54

Friday, May 15, 2009 at 14:54

Yup understand.

I'd still be looking at the features of PLC controlled Plasmatronics Solar charger range and see what you can 'borrow'.

FollowupID: 632680

Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Monday, May 18, 2009 at 00:43

Monday, May 18, 2009 at 00:43

Quote "Why can't we just have one box that sits under the hood that does everything? plug n play display systems, 240V input for external charging, alternator regulation and distribution with 3 stage charging, solar input, etc. Heck, in the future maybe you could have some bluetooth phone software that allows you to set priorities, current limiting and monitoring of your batteries in real time!"

The only reason is because no one has put one on the market. It would be physically and electrically possible.

PeterD

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FollowupID: 633159

Reply By: Powderfish - Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 17:04

Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 17:04

Does anyone have any instructions or manuals for the Ranox product they are able to email to me on the email above? I know they're floating around members on the Prado forum, but I haven't been allowed access to post there yet (probably cause I don't own a prado!)

That ranox product is a very clever system and is a good inspiration for my project.

Cheers!

Powderfish.

AnswerID: 365252

Reply By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 11:17

Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 11:17

Thanks to all that helped out with the Ranox docs! Appreciate it!

After having a good read, it's certainly an excellent product and I wish I could come up with something as good as that, but being practical I know it's not going to happen.

What I'm interested in that the manual doesn't go into much detail about, is what happens with loads such as headlights and on-board peripherals built into the car?

It says that with auto-ignition detection you should have NO loads on the starter battery, but surely things like headlights must still be connected. The voltage drop induced by them could be quite significant depending on the circumstances.

Also, if the starter battery is low after an accidental partial discharge, I'm assuming that the starter battery will suck up most of the current from the alternator for a while not allowing the Ranox a look in until the starter battery is sufficiently charged. Is this a correct assumption? Voltage will be low whilst the starter battery is taking charge, so I assume the Ranox sees this and limits the current to the aux.

Cheers,

Powderfish

AnswerID: 365949

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 15:22

Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 15:22

"Voltage will be low whilst the starter battery is taking charge, so I assume the Ranox sees this and limits the current to the aux. "

The main battery voltage will only be low if the total current demand on the Alternator exceeds its rated capacity.

Unless the Main battery has been discharged below 50%, it's unlikely to draw more than 30 amps.

FollowupID: 633714

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, May 26, 2009 at 16:28

Tuesday, May 26, 2009 at 16:28

If you want to get some ideas on measuring battery capacity so you can stop discharge at a particular capacity level e.g. 50% have a look at June Silicon Chip - they have an article on building a Digital Capacity Meter.

AnswerID: 366818

Back Moderator

What do you want/like in your Dual <span class="highlight">Battery</span> charger?

Powderfish

Reply By: Peter McG (Member, Melbourne) - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 14:54

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 15:43

Reply By: Member -Dodger - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 15:50

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:18

Follow Up By: Member -Dodger - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:31

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 17:49

Follow Up By: greybeard - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:05

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:10

Follow Up By: Boobook2 - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:14

Follow Up By: Lex M (Brisbane) - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 22:55

Reply By: Ray - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 18:12

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:10

Reply By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 19:33

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:25

Reply By: Diksta - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 20:01

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 21:58

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:25

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 21:02

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 22:20

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:21

Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 00:07

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:27

Reply By: Wok - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 08:57

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:40

Follow Up By: Wok - Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 11:47

Reply By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 12:28

Reply By: Nic I - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 14:37

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 16:12

Reply By: Wahroonga Farm - Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 17:40

Follow Up By: Powderfish - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 11:50

Follow Up By: Wahroonga Farm - Friday, May 15, 2009 at 14:54

Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Monday, May 18, 2009 at 00:43

Reply By: Powderfish - Saturday, May 16, 2009 at 17:04

Reply By: Powderfish - Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 11:17

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 15:22

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Tuesday, May 26, 2009 at 16:28

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